Acmon Blue ? - Plebejus lupini

Moved

Moved from Plebejus.

… David J. Ferguson, 3 December, 2009 - 8:58pm

I've added some comments

with the first photo, together with the relevant links. I hope both Robert and Ron will take a look at this material, & whoever else may be interested.

… Hartmut Wisch, 8 March, 2009 - 3:07am

relevant links

Thanks Hartmut Wisch. I explored all those links. Thanks again. There seems to be some basic dispute over the Range maps for these two specie. Why do Kaufman; B&M; of NA; and Paul Oplar have such contrary range map information??

… Robert L. Pearson, 8 March, 2009 - 9:21pm

Time, passing time and people doing more work -

I'll send you a PDF version of Paul Opler's 2003 paper on this complex. It also has photos of Acmon. Just notice that you don't have an e-mail listed. I'll put a link to the paper on the Plebejus acmon INFO page. Once on the INFO page, scroll down to Internet References, and click on PDF.
Butterflies of America is probably the most up-to-date & reliable website. It reflects the collaboration of the major Lep workers, including Andrew Warren & Paul Opler.

… Hartmut Wisch, 8 March, 2009 - 9:43pm

I suggest to consider the following:

The Acmon males, & I read the left image as a male with blue above, have only a very narrow black border on the FW above. The orange of the lunules on the Acmon's HW meet the blue directly, and are more on the pinkish side.
This butterfly shows a broader dark border on the FW above, and there's some dark interceding between the orange & blue on the HW. This is what I'd expect to see in a male Lupine Blue.
Granted, that the two species are extremely similar, and easily confused.
Lastly, I think your butterfly is what used to be considered Plebejus acmon texanus, now P. lupini texanus. See butterfliesofamerica.
VoilÃ , do you play the viola?

… Hartmut Wisch, 7 March, 2009 - 3:13pm

I cave in completely on "viola"

Got me there for sure, Hartmut. (I should stick to English! :-)

On the butterfly, I still think I'm right, but am now wavering. I have several Acmon Blues posted here and am fairly certain they're correctly IDed, as the Lupine Blue is restricted to the mountain habitats I don't frequent. (Also, in SoCal, flight time for the Lupine is May through July.)

At any rate, this particular ID is tougher than I'd anticipated.

… Ron Hemberger, 7 March, 2009 - 6:18pm

Distribution may also be an issue -

with Yavapai County, AZ, being out of range.
But this whole 'lupini', 'acmon' issue seems much more complex. To give you an idea I'll send you a paper by Paul Opler.
Meanwhile, I've discovered that I have quite a number of photos with a question mark, & will try to make sense of them. At least some of them are clearly Acmon.

… Hartmut Wisch, 7 March, 2009 - 9:05pm

I was leaning toward Acmon due to range map info

" 'lupini', 'acmon' issue seems much more complex. " It's a difinite maybe!

I sure don't know how to tell the wing pattern differences; thanks both of you for the discussion! It sure strengthens my uncertainty! Would like to know, though.

… Robert L. Pearson, 7 March, 2009 - 10:52pm

Fools rush in! What to look for in wing patterns

As mentioned earlier, I start with orange.

Next, I go to the obvious black markings - how numerous and how dark are they? (I know, scales rub off!)

What shape are the more dominant markings? I look for the presence/absence of what I call a chevron, or flattened V. (There isn't one here; it's a straight line instead.)

Finally, I compare the lighter markings.

It's all strictly non-scientific and sometimes tough to verbalize.

… Ron Hemberger, 7 March, 2009 - 11:08pm

wing patterns

Thanks much Ron

… Robert L. Pearson, 7 March, 2009 - 11:25pm

Thanks, Hartmut

butterfliesandmoths lists both blues in this county. If you have the time and inclination, please check Acmon posts; they're aren't many.

… Ron Hemberger, 7 March, 2009 - 9:25pm

Yes, Acmon Blue

They're flying in SoCal now, too. I finally figured out how to figure these blues out. Step one: look at the amount and location of orange on the bottom of the wing. (Here, the choices boiled down to Acmon and Lupine.) Step two: look at the black part of the pattern. (Viola! Acmon Blue!)

… Ron Hemberger, 7 March, 2009 - 1:16pm

"Step two: look at the black part of the pattern ?????

Which part? HW,FW, Under or Upperside? The dark spots or the marginal line?
Kaufman seems to show a little more space between the Orange "Chevrons" on the Lupine & that on Acmon: the Orange is almost ran together into more of a continuous band on the underside of the HW.
PS: I don't play the violin eiither! :)

… Robert L. Pearson, 8 March, 2009 - 5:03pm

Ach! Should have been more specific.

All my comments apply to the underside of the wing and the spots thereon.

… Ron Hemberger, 8 March, 2009 - 5:11pm

"more specific" Please

Being new at this endevour....I need all the help I can get. What " in the spots" under their wing distinguishes these two Blue BF's ? I also found a GREAT difference in the Range maps for these two: Kaufman is my in hand reference shows Acmon as inland West & Paul Opler & also B&M; of NAm both show it as mainly CA & NV with some extentions into OR & Baja CA.

… Robert L. Pearson, 8 March, 2009 - 6:06pm

Open a second browser window and look at what I was looking at:

http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species?l=1625
That's Lupine Blue at butterfliesandmoths.org. There are far fewer black spots than on yours, plus spots are typically smaller than yours. These butterflies look very different to me. (Of course, other photos may generate other results. It all leaves you wondering what is right.)

Also that sorta "chevron" I mentioned is a line on yours - the longest marking on the back wing - and absent on the Lupine.

… Ron Hemberger, 8 March, 2009 - 6:55pm

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